Prompted by what Margaret said, I thought an interesting thread would be the success you may or may not have had with plants not supposed to be hardy in your particular zone. This year I'm trying a hydrangea hardy to zone 6; I think it's Nikko Blue, taken from my brother's garden downstate. I've had a truly black grass in the garden for several years now, very low growing, which isn't suppposed to live here (whose botanical name escapes me at the moment,) yet I have a hard time keeping chrysanthemums - what is the new "proper" name? - alive from one year to the next even though they are deemed hardy here. The buddleias which are iffy in zone 5 are so far returning (after 3 tries) but, of course, are cut back to the ground each season in this area. My next challenge will be the new hardier camellias (zones 6 & 7) but I'm not reckless enough to do it with expensive shrubs until we prepare the sheltered spot behind and immediately adjacent to the east side of our concrete block barn. Re the buddleia/vitex from seed info, thanks, Margaret. If your vitex has seed, I'd appreciate some. I love growing things that supposedly won't grow in my zone, even if I have nothing to do with its success beyond a little mulch and pleading. Cheryl Schaefer, Schaefer Yarns Beautiful hand painted fibers schaefer@epix.net Zone 5 in the fabulous Finger Lakes of NY