George, I'm not quite in z 9, more like '8 ish'. The thornless blackberries haven't had the size berry that some of the other cultivars have had on them. I got some starts from the same fruit stand I got the fig trees (again, nameless varieties) but the 'doubles' though they had thorns, had much better fruit than the thornless. (But I swear I've seen thornless growing in our area that did have big berries on them.) Pooper Scooper hoodoo!! Last Sunday I was in a Christmas parade in Bryan Tx (in the rain). We have a Paso Fino horse group that has been invited to parade in a lot of the locals. This time we were required to bring our own pooper scoopers. I'm a member of the B/CS compost corps, so I contacted that group to see if they wanted to either walk the parade or just meet the mounted groups after the thing was over to collect the manure for the Brazos Center compost bins. Had the organizer of that group excited enough to count 'community service hours' for anyone who participated. But, the gal in charge of the mounted div of the parade would have none of it!! I thought it was a brilliant plan to get two groups of the city together, but apparently, the Compost Brigade poses some kind of threat?? Oh well, just trying to share the wealth! martha