Paul wrote: Also, I'm very familiar with the water woes in the San Antonio area. Have you ever given thought to putting in a drip system for your water?? You can use drip on the surface, but, my preference would be to have the lines and emitters placed about a foot beneath the surface. Much less evaporative loss and should be below what you would usually have as a till pan (plow pan in agriculture). Of course, it wouldn't be too much of a problem to pull it up every year so you could till. -------- Er, not too many spots in San Antonio offer 12" of topsoil!!! 1-2" of topsoil over 600+ feet of solid limestone and granite is more the norm....and I've got the Bexar, Gillespie, Llano, and Kerr county soil maps sitting beside me as I write this <grin>. Raised beds are pretty much a requirement in SA.....and not too many folks are in the habit of running through their raised beds with a plow (would be a really interesting looking plow, too!). Drip irrigation is almost a requirement in SA.....but laying the lines a inch under the soil/mulch line is more than adequate IMHO. Catharine/Atlanta, zone 7b and Fredericksburg, TX zone 8a