Re: [gardeners] toxic marsh
George Shirley (gardeners@globalgarden.com)
Fri, 29 Jun 2001 07:37:49 -0500
There has also been a disease affecting birds in the south, including Florida,
IIRC. Whatever is affecting the birds immediately is probably not DDT but
something else that was used later. Some of the old time(and new time too)
farmers have used some pretty potent toxins on their land. If the birds were
dying pretty quickly it was something with an acute action versus chronic for
DDT. Pretty bad either way.
Isn't the flooding of the land letting the toxins get into the water column
there?
George
Annetta Green wrote:
>
> George,
> The part about not dredging I can fully understand. The last thing they
> want to do is stir it up and put that stuff in the food chain. Here they
> are doing their best to turn dry land back into marsh. As they add the
> water it seems to be stirring the bad stuff up, where fish are absorbing it,
> and birds are eating it. What is surprising is that the fish kills have not
> been as severe as the bird kills. The young and eggs may still be effected,
> time will tell. For a while there, it seemed that the birds were falling
> out of the sky. It did take a while for the problem to show up. The land
> was flooded in the spring of 2000, the birds started dying at the end of
> that summer. There were a lot of theories about what was doing the dirty
> work. It seems that it can almost all be traced back to contaminated soil
> under the water. The soil cleared was mostly around where old barns or
> equipment storage/staging areas were located. Now that a good amount of
> that has been hauled away, they are saying that it will be better this time.
> Anne in FL
> zone 9b, sunset 26
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George Shirley" <gshirl@bellsouth.net>
> To: <gardeners@globalgarden.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 8:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [gardeners] intro
>
> > I'm not sure on the DDT, do know it has a long half-life but will
> eventually
> > dilute out. I didn't know the residue of DDT in the soil would kill the
> birds
> > immediately though, thought it was more a pattern of ingesting food
> contaminated
> > with DDT and then laying thin-shelled eggs. Hmm, might have to look some
> of that
> > up. Been a long time. Repeated flooding will dilute it as long as the
> toxin is
> > dilutable. There is a bayou near here that the bottom sediment profile
> shows
> > more than 256 heavy metals and chemicals, some of which have been there
> for 50
> > or 60 years, much of it from agriculture run-off. EPA refuses to dredge to
> get
> > rid of the sediment because of the fear it will end up in the water
> column.
> >
> > George
> >
> > Annetta Green wrote:
> > >
> > > George,
> > > what is the half life of DDT? How long can it sit in the ground and be
> a
> > > viable poison? The research, by state scientists, is showing that the
> toxic
> > > levels of the farm chemicals, most outlawed now, are what is/has been
> > > killing the birds. They found very high levels in the soil, water and
> > > birds. They have been trucking out the worst of the soil and are now
> trying
> > > to let it flood again. I think they are also hoping that the second
> > > flooding will dissipate even more of the chemicals to acceptable levels
> in
> > > the water.
> > > Anne in FL
> > > zone 9b, sunset 26
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "George Shirley" <gshirl@bellsouth.net>
> > > To: <gardeners@globalgarden.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 2:28 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [gardeners] intro
> > >
> > > > Most of that original marshland was turned into farmland in the
> twenties
> > > and
> > > > thirties though Anne. No controls at all until the fifties on
> pesticides
> > > and
> > > > other cides. I would still find it hard to believe that there was
> anything
> > > still
> > > > there that would kill birds after all those years. We're often to
> quick to
> > > blame
> > > > the farmer or industry when it may be something else that no one has
> > > delved into
> > > > deeply enough.
> > > >
> > > > George
> > > >
> > > > Annetta Green wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > OG magazine warns against Roundup--Monsanto's claims to the
> > > contrary, it
> > > > > > > does wind up in the water.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At the risk of sounding "anti-organic" (which I'm not), to my
> > > knowledge
> > > > > > Monsanto has never made any claims that Roundup cannot leach into
> > > water
> > > > > > supplies. The fact is that glyphosate is highly adsorbed by most
> > > soils,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > typically only very small amounts, if any, leach into groundwater
> when
> > > > > > properly used. Even when some makes it into water bodies, it is
> > > further
> > > > > > adsorbed and tightly bound to any organic matter in the water,
> where
> > > it is
> > > > > > broken down via microbes in a few weeks' time. Because it breaks
> down,
> > > > > > there's no bioaccumulation (as with DDT, PCP, etc).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I rarely use the stuff myself, but when I need to, such as on
> poison
> > > ivy
> > > > > as
> > > > > > did the poster of the above quote, I dont think it's polluting the
> > > water.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > don't think even Greenpeace cites glyphosate as a water pollutant
> > > hazard.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dan Dixon
> > > > > While not totally organic myself, I have found that we need to worry
> > > more
> > > > > about overuse, or use outside of the recomended limits. As with
> most
> > > > > chemicals there is that chance that it will be abused. Look at the
> new
> > > > > marshland that is being set up here in FL. The govt bought the farm
> > > land
> > > > > that, generations ago, used to be marshand and started to fill it
> with
> > > > > water. Over the years there had been so many chemical and
> fertilizer
> > > spills
> > > > > that the land was toxic to the native species they wanted to
> attract.
> > > The
> > > > > bird kills we had last year were the result of that. Millions of
> tons
> > > of
> > > > > soil have been removed and the state is ready to try again. This
> time
> > > they
> > > > > are going slower and testing soil and water as the water line
> changes
> > > and
> > > > > fills in. Not sure where all the money is coming from, but some of
> the
> > > > > labor is volunteer, as is some of the testing being done by local
> > > companies
> > > > > who want to see this work. The marsh once returned to it's former
> glory
> > > > > will be a beautiful thing.
> > > > > Anne in FL
> > > > > zone 9b, sunset 26
> > > >
> > > >
> >