WELL SAID CATHARINE!!!!!! I'm not a newbie at gardening but am new to heirloom tomatoes. I've learned much from this group but also feel that at times some of the folks can be....shall we say... bit presumptuous in the presentation of their views. I also think it's part of the evolution of the e-communities. When folks first join a listserve, they are quite polite. As the same questions come around over and over, some lose patience and don't take the time to answer questions with as much politeness as they first did. This doesn't mean they are bad folks, just normal people who don't have all the time in the world to type "nicely" with all the *8^) :^( and ;o) properly placed. And just like your own neighborhood, the e-hood has personalities that just don't jive with yours. Unfortunately, it's much easier to send off a nasty flame in cyberspace than in person. I think one of the reasons many folks here, it is to help propagate the growing of heirloom tomatoes (READ CAREFULLY, I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS THE ONLY REASON, JUST ONE OF MANY :^). Learning best takes place when it is not shoved in your face, but rather presented in such a way that the information (and it's giver) are perceived as rational. Just my .02 Obligatory tomato content. Are Reisentraube tomato plants slow growers? I've had 'em in my 4" pots since the end of May and they are only 2" high. Now back to your regular programming. Greg Park Zone 9