Ron, Californians seem able to stick even rose cuttings into the ground, and end up with new roses -- I stuck some hardy mum cuttings into the soil next to the mother plant, where they could get water over time, and they have not grown even one inch in 4 weeks! I don't think there was too much decomposition in my compost pile that winter when the geraniums survived -- it was all snow covered several times! Speaking of people staying away in droves, my #4 complains bitterly that she can suddenly find NO clients in her grocery store market research, and she lives on commissions . . . I have not checked up on the subject lately, but it is quite likely that you could buy a more powerful chemical than Orthene. Calif if much more liberal in permitting strong stuff than New York State is. They treat us as incompetents, and ban almost anything which will work! I notice on my shelf that the individual chemicals which are contained in Orthene come in stronger formulae when sold as individuals. Take a look in your supply store... Penny, NY . ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.